A full hands up confession here ....... I know naff all about mechanics on cars.

The problem is the ride height of the car - about 4 inches off the ground. There is absolutely no give in the front suspension.



(sorry about the size - the resizing option doesn't seem to work)
As I see it, I need a longer shocks on the front.



Is it a case of buying a couple of EMPI oil shocks : T1 ball joint front stock with a compressed distance of 350mm, or is it more complex than that ??

Onto the rear suspension.....I take it the diffence in shock asborber compression is not a good sign. I've checked it on other flat terrain and it's still the same.

Gday Steve -T bird

no worries there mate take a goosy gander through the forum some one kindly out-line the procedure re spline setup for the rear. Your rear might be running on different spline settings and this why your seeing that problem. Check it out before you spend your hard earned wedge on some new road smoothers.
|Re the front I seem to remeber UVA suggesting taking some leave out if your using it only on the road and on the deck like yours mate. Just hope your got some hard waring trousers. :D
Try the PDF that nice fellow Paul posted up it's some where in there as I recall.
Still you'll have loads of fun once its sorted it'll be cool.
Got go I got and cut some more weight out of the fug. cya
:ph43r: :ph43r: :ph43r: :ph43r: :ph43r: :ph43r: :ph43r: :ph43r: :ph43r: :ph43r:

That's right - it's not the shocks that control the ride height it's the positions of the springs that run inside the tubes.

However, is your problem the height or the stiffness of the front suspension? Do you want it raised or softened? Although the two are connected, they're not the same thing.

The shocks are set at their most compressed, which kind of defeats the object. I've taken one off and extended it. When it's compessed again, it feels abit gritty and inconsistent in it's return - posh way for saying it feels shagged !!



This is a 'little knowledge is a dangerous thing' part :-

Should the damper not sit in the middle position of it's travel. The harder the suspension requirement, the smaller the tube of oil needs to be, thus less travel.

That being said, there still needs to be some amount of travel to make the component effective. Without it, you'd be running metal on metal. :unsure:

You are right - your shocks should not be at the end of their travel. If you are riding around with the shocks in that position then they won't be doing anything.

However, your suspension is set really low. How much travel is there in your suspension without the shock absorbers? If your ball joints are at the end of their travel then that is not good news either.

A normal beetle has bump stops built into the top of the front shocks. The shock hits these stops before the ball joint runs out of travel. The reason for this is that the ball joints are pressed into the trailing arms and if the ball joints hit first then they gradually loosen in the arms and eventually fall out. Not a good thing. You can get 'long travel' ball joints which have a bit more movement in them.

So, in summary:

• You can fit shorter shocks when lowering the suspension. In fact it is quite normal to do so.
• However, make sure that the shorter shocks do not allow the ball joints to become the limiting factor in your suspension travel. You will eventually regret it if you do.

I've had another look at your photo. I can't tell if it's the angle of the camera, but your front suspension does look incredibly low. Maybe too low.

I'd guess that you have the torsion bars turned in the front beams to lower the car. They are fixed half-way along the tubes. If you are unlucky they will have been cut and turned. If you are lucky then they will have an adjuster welded in.

If I were you, and I wanted to maintain the ride hight but improve the suspension, then I would turn the adjusters back up to raise the height then lower it again with a pair of lowered spindles.

This, in a nutshell, puts the suspension back to nearer the stock position, and gets you all the suspension travel back, but moves the wheel up in relation to the car.

This gives you the low stance (and the good handling that goes with it) but gives you a better ride too. It's work and expense, though.

I take it you undo these nuts and then swivel the internal bar/rod .......

Those are your adjusters - they seem to be all the way down.

• Apply release oil to everything
• Clean out the hex sockets in the tops of all the grubscrews properly so that you can get an allen key in all the way
• Jack up front of car (to take weight off)
• Loosen the forward facing nuts a little bit (but not the grubscrews in the middle) to take the clamping force off the aluminium piece and let it slide (but only undo a little bit!)
• In fact make sure the forward facing grubscrews are tight
• Loosen the locknuts well off the downward pointing bolts
• Screw in the downward pointing bolts (quarter inch maybe) to push the aluminium packer, grubscrew and nut upwards
• Tighten all the locknuts
• Lower car onto ground
• Admire new nose-up stance

Yup, I've been lying on the gravel driveway in the dark with a torch - starting to become adictive this car fiddling thing..............

Right then, the grumb bolts go through the aluminium packer and into an internal rod of some sort. I take it a small increase in the angle at this point is magnified at the wheels.

The bit that looks tricky is screwing in the downward facing bolts. Once the locknut is undone, do you screw in the bolt using the nut above and if so, how do you get at it, because it is surrounded by the mount ??

As for jacking the car up, I'm gonna have to dig a bloody hole to put the jack into because the car is so low !!!

I've yet to find an exploded diagram on the web that shows the inner workings of the front beam. I don't suppose anyone has any ideas on that ??

The nut that you are talking about is welded to the mount - it's part of the mount - it's just what the grubscrew screws into. They've just used a nut for ease or cheapness I guess - easier than cutting a thread into the mount itself. Ignore this nut.

The grubscrew has a hexagonal hole in the end. You screw it in using an allen (ie hexagonal) wrench. Once you undo the locknut it should move quite easily as long as it hasn't siezed.

By the way, a grubscrew is a bolt without a proper head - it looks like a grub :)

Inside the tubes are torsion bars (springs that provide springing by twisting). They are fixed in the middle in a casting and locked in position by the forward facing grubscrew. This casting can (in the case of an adjustable beam) revolve inside the tube. The downward facing screw positions the casting in a particular position by bearing on the other screw.

A normal VW beam just has the casting fixed in position and is not adjustable, by the way.

Thanks for that, but with all great plans.................it's raining !!

Steve

Stop raining.............time to cause trouble !!

The bottom adjuster has no more room to be adjusted up :-


The top adjuster does have room. I've adjusted it up by about 7mm with no affect on the ride height :-


I'm I being to careful with the adjustement....??

Also of note is that the adjustment bolts do not have a head on them to facilitate them being wound in or out. I've had to gingerly wind them in with a pair of molegrips - not ideal !!

I'm thinking that the internal 'wheel' needs to be rotated 90 degrees - so rather than put the bolt into this hole, it needs to go into this hole


(incase the diagram doesn't load)
http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a232/Ste...02-coloured.jpg

It looks to me to be assembled correctly.

However, it looks to me like your adjusters have been welded in in the 'slammed' position - ie for maximum lowness.

These Sway-a way adjusters have about 20-30 degrees of adjustment in their design - basically the amount of adjustment is down to the length of the slot that the screw sits in.

However you can weld them into any position on the tube when you fit them. You can fit them so that they are centred at the stock position, or a bit higher, or a bit lower. Yours are a bit lower. You will always have a low Fug unless you cut them out and re-weld them.

I'd adjust them fully up and see where that gets you.

However, let's step back a little and consider things. Think about these two questions.

1) What angle is your top trailing arm to the ground? Parallel? Pointing up? Or down? By how much?

2) Without shocks fitted, does your suspension move? How about if you jump on it? How about two people?

PS. Are you sure the screw that you are adjusting with mole grips doesn't have a hexagonal hole in the top for an allen key?

In no logical order, so I'll start from the end.......I think there is a hex head on those there bolts !! It would make sense..........

I'll have to get back to you on questions 2. I don't know if this assists, but the shocks did extend out a fair way once the car was jacked up.

Also, I don't think the adjusters are welded in place......I'm sure there was some movement in both of them.

Should they both be set at the same setting i.e. near the top of the slot ?

With regard to the trailing arms, hopefully these pics will help :-




Steve

Have a look at the line diagram that you posted. When you buy one of these things that is exactly what you get. You have to weld it into your axle tubes. As it is circular you get to choose the position in which to weld it. So you can weld it too high or too low.

Your trailing arms look pretty low to me. What do other people that have lowered Fugs think? Is yours as low as that? Do you have any movement left?

I have these adjuster on my fug but it is not on the deck like Steve's I will post some photos tommorow if that's any help.
I am afraid I have played with them.
I didn't quite folow your procedure either.

I also think that you should write this up as a technical bulletin some one is bound to ask again.

anyway better get off



Bob's rule Power/cost=fun

Bob

You probably think I've lost the plot here.........what I ment was the actual adjuster inside the tube isn't welded. I get what you saying though in respect of the grub bolt mount being welded too low.

Is there any significance in the lower adjuster being at a different setting to the upper one ??

Oh dear, no rain, time to play around with it again......

Steve

From what I remember the stock grubscrews aren't at quite the same angle either. I think that that reflects the fact that the trailing arm angles are slightly different due to the suspension geometry.

It may be an attempt to replicate that. Or it may be a cockup.

DVD

I wouldn't really know what I was looking at to be honest but my fug is not on the deck like Steve's. If it would help I'll take some pictures and post them up let me know whether you want them or not.

Helen's in a bit of state so it ain't gona be pretty <_< not had time to put to much tlc in yet. it will have to wait till winter. Apart from some important performance grafts and general maintenace that it no cleaning polishing fettling etc.
Having too much fun. She is being used and abused too much :D

U Bob

Bob, it would be helpful if you could post some pics of your car's suspension - front & rear.

I've been chatting to a fella in German & Swedish, who states that once the front beam is adjusted down, the twist in the leaves will never recover, therefore the height won't go up again. Apparently, you can't buy new leaves - it's a whole new front beam.........I'm sure I've seen them for sale somewhere.

Now then, there is probably a 'don't shoot the messenger' issue here......and I do except that he would want to try and sell me a new beam.

Is anyone aware if the UVA TD sheets 23 & 24 are on the original site ?
TD 34 makes reference to them in respect of front & rear suspension.

:wacko: :blink: :huh: :wacko: :blink:

Sounds like someone trying to flog a new beam to me ............

That'll be sunshine coming from the sky - time to play with the Fug then !!

Bobacat, you mentioned that you were going to post some pictures of your suspension on the site. Any chance you could please mate coz it's a new financial year coming up and there's gonna be money in the pot to play with suspension.

Also, (this'll be to everybody and anybody) Basically, I want to raise the height of the rear of the car so that the rear wheels sit flat rather than camber in. By doing so, I'm sure that I'm gonna need to raise the front as well, if only by a bit. Is this going to effect the geometry of the car ???


Cheers,

Steve

Ohhh, yes ;)

It will change the caster of the front wheels and the camber and toe in of the rear. Probably the dive of the front suspension under braking, too. Although, what do you think that the chances of the original builder setting them right were anyway?

The caster of the front's probably not too big a deal as the Fug frame has a load of additional caster over stock VW anyway.

The camber and ride height are inter-related at the rear - I'd leave a little negative camber on the rear - unless you're going for the off-road look it'll hold the road better.

It's worth getting the rear toe-in right though - that's adjusted using the slotted holes on the spring plates.

Oh yes the sun is deffo shining here too!!!......was in the garage today, am in the process of stripping the front end, ready for a new adjustable beam to go in........it needs the UVA brackets welding to it for the headlamps, but now I have ressurected my MIG welder I can do it all in the garage which saves hassle big time!.......

Steve - from your rear axles, you want to try an retain about 2-5 degrees of negative rear camber, as a guide Ill check what the standard beetle is supposed to be.......anyone know?..... you are along the right lines with raising the ride hight a little as your car is effing low!...........what I would do is fit everything, like the new adjustable front beam, and turn the rear springlpates back a few splines........then take the fug to a tyre fitting shop who has a 4-wheel laser alignment system, and they will set it all perfectly all for £25 - and it will be bang on, you want to aim to retain marginal toe-in on the front and deffo the rear, otherwise the car will become unstable at speed with iffy rear toe out.......dont be afraid to bell me if you ever get stuck

Knighty, I'm beginning to agree on a new adjustable front beam. I've been playing around with the settings today and am now further forward.

It was set at this :-



Having jacked up the car, I pushed the front wheels down and the leaves rotated around. It's now set at this :-



The question is and forgive me if someone has already answered it, should the hole being going up, as in this case, to raise the height of the car, or down ? I'd guess up because pushing the wheels down, when jacked up, would effectively be raising the ride height. Dvd8n did mention that you can weld the adjusters at the wrong height - maybe that's what I've got.

I stuck a tool into the hole and was offered a fair bit of resistance (no change there then) when I tried to adjust the 'hole' down. Basically the leaves were under tension and would not move and stay down.

Could it be that the leaves have been adjusted right to the lowest position and can now not be adjusted back up ?

Whatever the setting, it makes no difference to the ride height. I pretty convinced that the shocks are shagged. This thing is, do I have to by a new adjustable beam, or is there any mielage in reconing the existing one ?

If I do buy new shocks, do I have to set the ride height first and then measure the gap between the top & bottom shock mounting points to ensure that I purchase the right size ?

Steve

Looks to me as if the adjusters have been welded in at the wrong angle?
As a approx point of reference the bracket that holds the adjusting screw should be at a 15 degree positive angle. Or.... if you were looking down the length of the beam the adjsting screw should be in the plain of 11 o' clock to 5 o'clock.
Because yours is almost horizontal then of course you run out of adjustment. Cut it out and reweld at the correct angle. Once the first one is correct then make up a simple cardboard template for the second to get both in the same angle.

I had a similar problem on a ghia I once had, I got around it by investing in a rotary file for the electric drill and opening up the slot further. But if this does not fix it then you will have to go the whole way with above...

B) B)

Right then - Coil Over Shocks.......if my beam adjustment is so low that the suspension leaves only kick in when the ride height is 4" from the ground, would it not be possible to fit coil over shocks of a length that they raise the height of the car and thus overide the torsion bar suspension system.

I can't believe that it would be that simple and is there an issue with fitting anti-sway bars with a strut suspension system ?

Working on the "I can't be that lucky principle" I'm thinking that I'll buy a new adjustable beam for about £140 and fit that. Is it a case of just unbolting the old one and fitting the new one, or do I revert to the above principle ?

I've just found Fugepilot's pic on another topic, with the very same coil over shocks fitted.

http://forums.fugitives.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=124

You could fit coil overs or you could buy another front beam. Both will get around the problem.

However the coil overs (unless you get a set tuned for your front end - £200 up wards) will be an extreme cure as you may end up with a set up tensioned between the coils and the sway -aways.... this will give a 'very' solid ride indeed.

Better still rework the one you have, you know what hieght you have with it now and you know roughly what hieght you want so re calculate the angle and rotate the adjusters to suit.... B)

Yes, I've always read that using coil-overs to sort this sort of problem isn't a good idea. The coil-overs are working against the torsion leaves and you end up with weird springing effects.

If you buy a second beam it's not a hard task to swap the bits over. Apply lots of release oil beforehand on the trailing arm bolts.

** All change, just read Tigger's bit about extending the slot with a rotary file. Knighty has just phoned and I now know what a rotary file is - in fact, I've actually got one....of sorts !!! **

I'm going to go for the new beam with adjusters, probably from BBT - £149.

I take Tigger's point on cutting and re-welding the old beam, however I don't have the kit to do that. For me, a straight forward swap would be most ideal.

BBT were talking about the torsion leaves being knackered. Does this happen and how can you tell ? I don't want to invest in the time & effort of swapping the beams, only to find the torsion leaves actually needed changing, when there sat inside the newly install new beam............

Cheers for your replies. As you have guessed, I'm not that clued up with the techy/mechy stuff. But hell, that's half the fun of having the car in the first place.

The current state of play is off-road, awaiting a windscreen wiper/motor to be fitted prior to MOTing & taxing. The suspension needs looking at anyway + it may fail on the MOT, so best get it sorted first.

Once the suspension is done and I'm back on the road, I'll have a play with the engine. The main thing is - sun shines - me go out in car - whether it's roaring down the road with 80+bhp or poodling along with it's current 34bhp, it's still out on the road looking rather nice...

Steve

Steve - something else to check before you splash out loads of cash.....I once read somewhere that UVA used to reccomend removing some of the torsion leaves in an attempt to make the front suspension softer......I also know this is one of the methods used to lower beetles - it is considered a real bodge, as the remaining torsion leaves become overstressed and permanently bend/twist......

find out how many leaves are supposed to be fitted, then count yours.......but counting them wont be easy, as you will have to remove an upper and lower trailing arm from one side, so in other words, youll have to disconnect a brake line, disconnect the steering arm, un-do the bolts which clamp against the torsion leaves then remove the whole wheel, hub and upper & lower trailing arm assembly and have a count........this is something I need to do on my car too........dont panick, it aint that hard to do

I would highly reccomend you do this before you do anything else, as this may well be why your car is so soflyy sprung and grounding out all the time, bell me if you need a hand doing it.........you will need a ball joint splitter, machine mart sell a nice big one for about a tenner, I could lend you mine if you like.....let me know

an interesting thread to read below.......

http://www.volkszone.co.uk/VZi/showthread....leaves+lowering

the bloke called "mr whippy" seems to know what he's talking about......the bottom line seems to be stick with a standard amount of leaves in a balljoint beam, and get some adjustable spax dampers to adjust the damping to your requirements - sounds quite logical to me......way to go steve :) ......


if you dont fancy splashing out on expensive spax shocks, then for god sake make sure you have adequate bump stops fitted to ensure you dont ground out, just jump up and down on your suspension and youll soon see if you need them or not......I suspect you will.......they only cost a few quid, basically rubber washers that pack out the damper rod and limit suspension travel........I fitted some to my car and they worked a treat, as the front suspension is soft and it used to dive quite far under normal braking......not anymore :P

some more info from the nerds on the volkszone fourm, see this link:-

http://www.volkszone.com/VZi/showthread.ph...941#post2359941

ties up with what I read in my haynes manual too.....10 leaves per beam.....some could be missing/cracked/permanently twisted, so deffo worth a look before you do anything else.

I stripped my beam last night and surprise surprise it only has the 4 big leaves fitted per beam, the six small ones had been removed from each beam.......before I stripped them the car was handling well, so I'll probably leave it be. but will check the leaves are not bent or cracked.

I've jack up the car to an 8" ride height, cut the slot, re-done the nuts, let the jack down and then.....................................the car stayed up....................and then I stood on the front................................and then it went back down to the 4" ride height.

New beam me thinks.

You could have the adjusters in the wrong way round. On the inner bit where the pitch screw clamps the torsion leaves. Make sure this is in the correct hole. In other words there is a slot in the inner piece, to help clamp the leaves. Make sure this is where it is and not left for the longer screw which is the bit ofr the adjustment.

I'm not explaining myself very well here but there are two ways of putting the adjusters together and only one is the correct way....... :ph43r:

Tigger,

Are you talking about the two holes/slots on the internal adjustment wheel ??

(1st page of this thread.)

Actually, something that is apparent from the diagram above, is the position of the slot cut into the beam. As you've/others have said, my adjusters/slots are way too low.

What gets me Tigger old friend, is that even extending the slot & re-bolting it all back together makes absolutely naff-all difference.

I was chatting with Knighty today, and he reiterated his suggestion of removing one of the trailing arms and having a butchers at the leaves.

I've started to tread water a bit, so have contacted a Beetle specialist in Colchester, nearish to me. The phone conversation went well (he came across alright and appeared to know what he was talking about.) The bottom line may be a few hundred quid + parts, for someone who knows what their doing to sort the suspension & geometry out. This would leave me plenty of time to French Connection UK up the engine !!!!

Seriously, if I bollox up the engine or the fitting of a mirror, that's in a different league to messing up the suspension & geometry of the car.

It appears that I have 'Command & Control' of the remote tonight....so time to go.

Steve

Steve-T

The leaves will only go in the beam the one way as the trailing arms are handed. For example as you look at it, the left side trailing arms are clamped underneath, the right side on top. But, the leaves could be rotated in the wrong orintation which I think has happened with yours.

I have just looked again at mine and also compared it to a standard beam....

On a standard beam the pitch screw which clamps the leaves in the middle of each beam is positioned at 7 o'clock if looked from the RHS. From this standard position to raised the front it would need to rotate clockwise and for lowering anti clockwise
looking at it from the front compared to the adjusters in the front of my Fugitive. Your diagram is wrong, because the smaller grub screw should be still at 7 o'clock or there abouts (as the standard one), but with the provision of the adjustment either way in the slot, hope this makes more sence than the gobbly goke I came out with last night <_<

You won't up set the geometry of the front end. Providing the beam is square to the chassis, by lowering it you lose some castor, but this is regained with shims under the bottom beam. Raising it will restore / increase castor. Chamber is only effected by rotating the concentric nut on the stub axle. Of course you will have to re-set your tracking :D

Knighty has spoken......and he has come up with a suggestion based on the removal of his beam - this is to cut the slots further up than I have at present.

Looking at DVD's, and everyone elses, the locking bolt should be at a lesser angle when viewing from the f/o/s across the beam to the f/n/s.

If you imagine a clock face imposed on the side of the tube, 3 o'clock towards the front and 9 to the rear. My bolts are at about 3 o'clock, when really the should be at about 1 o'clock or about 10 past to be exact....

I haven't anything to lose, so cutting will comence in during the hours of daylight on the 11th ....

Cut it, no different, new beam.

The adjustment bolts are now angled at about 1-2 o'clock rather than 3-4. No change at all.

Steve