Here one for all you Fug drivers out there...

I have driven modded Beetles for years on and off and have never had a stability problem. However the fugitive at speeds over 80mph gets very fidgity and nearing 100 it really starts to concentrate the mind somewhat...

Is this normal ? Have I been driving a modern car for too long?? :o

what toe settings are you running at the rear?.....I dont know what beetles/fugs are supposed to be set at, but I know its really important to have toe-in on the driving wheels.......if it toe-out on the rear it will be unstable under power........I think you know what poor front castor can do too........

As follows :

Front : Castor = 8 deg neg
Camber = 2 degs neg
tracking = 30 mins toe in

Rear : camber = 2 deg neg
tracking = parallel


Any ideas ?

Are you running with the standard VW hydraulic steering damper ? makes a big difference if this is missing or knackerd.

That sounds like normal for my fug.

I just make sure all 4 wheels are pointing roughly in the right direction, I`ve given up on sorting the bump steer out and the little bit of play on the steering box so its just a case of grit your teeth, and cling on for dear life. :D

Thats at 80, If i ever manage to hit a ton i`ll let you know!

I think its worth putting a touch of toe-in on the rear, I used to run 1mm per rim toe-in on my single seater racer rear wheels - and it was considered a must-have on any single seater, otherwise it drove lice a posessed car, I dont know how that translates to minutes..........the steering damper one sounds interesting too

Bump steer is next on my list but the rear toe in is interesting.....I will try that

I am running a Mk 1 Golf GTi rack 'n' pinion so no steering damper and the tie rods are parallel to the floor and equal length. They are quite short though hence the possible bump steer issue.

If nothing else works I can always wind up the damping on the front shocks and stop the bump steer that way.... :ph43r:

I think the rack could be your problem, with 'normal' type suspension, the steering arm pivot point must be inline with the suspention pivot so they travel through the same arc of movement. With the trailing arm, there is no transverse arc, the movement is vertical, while the rack has to pivot and so pulls on the steering arms, worse, there is a longtitudinal arc from the trailing arms which will magnify the effect. Best you can do is find the narrowest rack you can ( small Fiat or something ? ) so you can fit the longest possible track rods and keep the arc sector as flat as possible.

Yes what you say makes sense I've been reading up on it also. Thanks for that

Ah well...back to the drawing board :ph43r: :ph43r:

I have a stock VW front end (including VW steering box, track rods, etc) on my Fug, set at a 'normal' ride height, i.e. it isn't radically raised or lowered, and it's rock solid at speeds up to and beyond 90mph (where it goes off the clock) :D

They were clever chaps those VW engineers.

HELLO,YOU HAVNT MENTIONED HOW THE TYRES ARE WEARING,I E RUBBING OFF ON THE EDGES,ETC,DUE TO THE RATIO OF THE STEERING BOX,MY OWN FUGITIVE HAS VERY DIRECT STEERING RESPONSE AT SPEEDS OVER 100 MPH -30MPH IF YOUR A POLICE OFFICER,CHEERS

No cops here... only robbers :ph43r:


I've been thru a number of books now on the subject and I don't think the rack is that far out....

Also although I agree with what Dom has said I still think the rack is the way forward and will perserve with it. Wishbones will give the same effect also but in the other plane which is just as bad.

Interestingly enough rear toe in has improved it greatly and one handed driving at 80-90mph is now easily possible. I think some of it is me also.... :(

Tiggar - with the figure of 30 minutes (0.5degree) toe in on the front.......is this per wheel or total between the two wheels?........with a bit of trigonometry, assuming wheel diameter of say 500mm, Tan 0.5 x 500 = 4.36mm per wheel........or Tan 0.25 x 500 = 2.18mm per wheel........hmmmm.......both of those figures seem way excessive to me.......

I would have said 1 mm per rim maximum.......I once ran 2mm per rim toe-in on my race car and in 2 races it mullered my tyres........wadyareckon?........would the 30 minutes (0.5degree) figure have been for manky old beetle crossplies?........I'm 100% certain my Yokohoma copies (Nankang) low profile jobbies are deffo radial tyres!

Well....you could well be right :ph43r:

I have set the front up (toe in wise anyhow) as per standard beetle (30mins plus or minus 15 mins total) Which I did not think accessive ??

I will try wot you say and let you know B)

As the tyres are much wider and much lower profile, I'm thinking the original bug toe setting is way too excessive for the front.........I thing 1mm toe-in per rim front and rear is more safe, I'm concerned about excessivley scrubbing my tyres.......my tyres were destimed for a 1970's porsche 911, with rim sizes of 15"x8" fronts, 15"x10" rear......the tyres are 205-50-R15 front, 235-50-R15 rear........

I have found some 911 toe settings that I found on google, up front they only run 5 minutes toe in (per rim), with a tolerance of +5 minutes (per rim).......that equates to 0.7mm to 0.14mm per rim........therefore 1mm toe in per rim sounds more sensible to me.

at the rear they run 15 minutes , with a tolerance of +5 minutes per rim, which equates to 2.2mm to 2.9mm per rim.......the tyres are from a 1993 911 turbo.......similar tyre widths to mine, but are on 18" rims with 40 and 35 profiles........interesting to compare though

Thanks for that

I am running similar tyre and wheel sizes to you, with 205/50x15 on 7 inch split rim Fuchs up front and 255/45x15 on 9 inch split rim Fuchs at the rear so I will try what you say and see.... :P

Err-r think I've sussed it.

No idea wot I've done but instead of thinking I've got 10 mins toe in on the rear I have actually got 40 mins toe out :blink:

No wonder it wanders at speed :lol:

Got the day off to sort it..........

Sorted ...wot a transformation!

30 mins toe in rear (total)
20 mins toe in front (total)

100mph one handed now easy although not recommended as that would be just silly really :D

Now at least we can find out wot the old porky 6 will really do..... ;)

good to hear your getting somewhere!......when you say total - do you mean total accross the axle - therefore half that amount per wheel, so that would be:-

15min (2mm) each rear wheel ????......

10min (1.5mm) each front wheel ????.....

if so that sounds quite sensible to me, the original beetle settings were too slack on the rear, and to agressive on the front - as with the type of tyres that me and you are running - the fronts would have got wiped out in no time

Knighty,

Yep total across the axle in both cases so just the figures work out as you have said there.

Still got tooo much feed back on the steering (probably bump steer) but the turn in and more importantly change of direction at speed have greatly improved along with the straight line stuff... B)

Thanks for your input and help :P



Steering rack position next then....