hey silv - good going on the R1!.......which model did you go for in the end?......carbed or injection?.........I'm told the really early R1 engines from 1999 ish have the weaker type of clutch basket and will go pop in no time if you dont fit a billet clutch basket........you made a wise choice on the R1 though - it is a really compact and light engine at 62Kg........are you gonna put it on the road or for off road use only?........

is an off the shelf kit available yet for adapting an R1 to a bug gear box - or will you be doing it all yourself? - If I can be of any help with measuring/designing or executing the conversion let me know, as I design engines for a living, and that sort of project is not too hard for me, as I have done very similar things before. heres my website

www.knightecengineering.com

apologies for the trumpet blowing :rolleyes: and no - I wont want paying anything

just checked out the R1 engine spec......

Power: 180 HP @ 12.500 rpm

Engine type: Liquid cooled, 4-stroke, DOHC, 4-valve, forward inclined, parallel 4-cylinder
Displacement: 998 cc
Bore x stroke: 77.0 x 53.6 mm
Compression ratio: 12.7:1


ooh i like the sound of that :o :D

still going for golf power though..... :rolleyes: :lol:

Not all R1 engines are equal though. The very first (1998) R1's "only" had <>130bhp and dodgey clutches but the clutch was fixed through the dealers. Up until a couple of years ago the R1 power was around 130bhp bar one year which had 150bhp I think. Might have been 1999.

It's only the R1s in the last couple of years that have <>180bhp.

It's a 2001 engine (carbs). The guy I bought it from said he had it dyno tested at 148bhp at the wheel which sounds like enough for me!

Thanks for the offer of help Knighty. I'll be doing it all from scratch so there will be a few challenges that I may need a second opinion on - for sure.

I have also read elsewhere that an uprated clutch is desirable so that will be on the shopping list.

I fancy putting it on the road but have no V5 even though it came with a number plate and the gut I bought it from said it had been on the road previously, so I guess I'll have to do battle with the bureaucracy at DVLA to sort that out eventually. For starters I'll be blatting it around off road.

thats the one I was advised to go for - 2001 carbed - I think from 2003 they went injection, then the later ones from 2005 onwards are really high power, but are advised for race use only - as I think the torque is particularly low - someone correct me if I'm wrong........

wiring up the carbed engine is hard enough, the injected motors are a real mare....... you need to substitute the EXUP valve for some resistor or something in the ECU - its common knowledge in the bike engined car (BEC) kit car world now - so you shouldnt have any trouble, as a word of advice, join the yahoo bike engined cars chat forum, the amount of BEC knowledge on there is unreal, heres the link

http://uk.groups.yahoo.com/group/bike-engined-cars/

do you have any ideas on how your gonna do the exhaust?

I,m told the best way to do with the clutch on an R1 BEC installation is to get a hydraulic "pull" slave cylinder and therefore use a hydraulic pedal assembly - dont mess about with cables.

as for the gear change I used a M5 push/pull cable and it worked a treat on my single seater with blackbird power. :D

Knighty,
I was going to keep the standard exhaust system - Exup valves and all (increased low end torque??) and just modify the pipe with a bend upwards so the can is effectively pointing at the sky at about 60 degrees (or whatever fits).

M5 push/pull cable? What's that about? If it's off a Beemer that won't be cheap! Do you know how much? Any pictures?

cheers

Paul

using the standard exhaust - wise decision - yes will give you low down torque with the EXUP - but be warned - I checked the lower exhaust to input shaft dimension on my fug-4 and I worked out it will sit well below the floor pan line - so just be carefull if you start going for the "low-rider" look like I have.......if your off roading I dare say you will be running it quite high - so not a problem

M5 is reference to the thread size, as in 5mm......not BMW ;) ........you want an M5 push pull cable with a minimum of 3 inches of travel.......whatever you do - dont use M6 as the cable diameter go's massive and not very flexible.....the M5's are nice and flexible........you can get them custom made for about £30 to £50.......or I think you can buy ready made items from deemon tweeks........

I have a friend who makes simple cheapo paddle-shift assemblies that locate behind the steering wheel - I will contact him to see if he still makes em........its basically a piece of 10mm round bar, bent into a U-shape, behind the steering wheelwith 1 push-pull cable connected, with a pivot at the bottom of the U.......pull on one side to chenge up, and the otherside to change down - simple

using push pull cables to do the gearchange is a god-send, dont start messing about with rods and stuff as you will need quite a few for the installation your going for.

BMW!! Don't I feel stoopid! <_< Thought it was a reference to some fancy Bavarian trickery - not a glorified bike brake cable!!

I'll check out Demon Tweeks - thanks

I got mine from Lister about 5 years ago

http://www.lister.co.uk/ecommerce/response...otorsport&id=12

failing that try speedy cables on

http://www.speedycables.co.uk/

or

http://www.rcscables.com/

I had a flick through my deemon tweeks catalogue and I couldnt find em - looks like they stopped doing them........dont forget - you want a M5 "push/pull" cable, with a minimum travel of 3 inches........believe me - it will save you a load of time

Knighty - how does a bowden cable cope with the "push" side of thngs? I can see the "pull" being easy but the force required to push a gearchange is quite a lot - what stops the cable buckling - or do they come with a length of the "cable" actually being a solid rod?

Streetfighter - sorry mate - I've hijacked your thread!

Paul

the part that moves is telescopic - like a radio arial - in will never buckle under push loads

Been in touch with speedy cables. They can do it - no problem. Various lengths and travels. Helpful bloke!

Happy New Year everyone!

OK - I've now managed to pull the Beetle engine away from the gearbox to try to see how I might connect the output sprocket from the R1 engine to the VW gearbox input shaft. Two hours of levering, pushing, pulling, swearing etc etc - Clutch plate and gearbox shaft were rusted together ;)

Looking at the slenderness of the input shaft of the gearbox, I'm struggling to think of a way to connect one to the other. I think the shaft needs to be supported at the rearward end (as it was in the flywheel of the Beetle engine) but this then gets in the way of any connection via any type of propshaft arrangement. Leaving the input shaft unsupported with 140bhp whipping it around might be a short experience!

Anyone any ideas or suggestions on places to look on the web?

Cheers
Paul

Yes as per usual i have an idea :D :lol: , anyway what you could do is use the centre section of the bug clutch friction plate(splined) to attach to the input shaft on bug box then you have a suitable mounting point for a coupling direct to a primary drive sprocket via bolts and/or welding, which will mount straight on the R1 output shaft.

As long as you mount the engine inline with the two respective in/out shafts all will be dandy, as there is no side wauys pull on either shaft and no chain or belt to lose HP through. B)

Here's a rough sketch of what i mean.


I've drawn it pulled apart so you can see how the bolts and coupling flange could be.
There are many ways you could couple them together using a clutch friction plate centre and an R1 sprocket, as long as you line them up there's no reason why you shouldn't just use a central spacer and weld all three pieces together.
Then when you put the R1 engine and the bug box together they slip on to there respective splines. B)

BJ,

Thanks for the idea. I'll take a look at the weekend.
You reckon the clutch centre is man enough? Any experience of this?
At worst I just blow up a clutch plate centre bit I suppose. Worth a try.

Thanks mate.
P.

shaft of the gearbox is strong enough. even at the autocross they drive with this (170hp) only the linkage is the weakest parts.

now that's what i call an adaptor plate!!! who made that dude? B)

I dont think you need to worry about the input shaft support as you will have no side loads from the clutch movement as you will have no clutch there - it will be in the R1 motor!

bin jammin is spot on with his reccomendation - get a vw clutch centre plate and also an R1 sprocket adaptor for a BEC conversion - which is basically a 4 bolt flange with the R1 spline pattern to fit on the sprocket shaft - commonly available in the kit car mags - obviously the whole assembly will need to be as concentric as possible - I would STRONGLY advise you have a sleeve made on a lathe that locates as a size for size fit (as tight as possible!) on the OD and thrust face of each of the two flanges (4 locationg faces) - have the adaptor drilled and tapped to mate to the respective bolt holes of each flange, then simply bolt em up - if the alignment of each shaft is out by more than about 0.2mm.......your gonna break something in a bad way :(

as a guess the assembly will be about 4 to 6 inches in length and will be the shape of a "top hat"- make the shaft adaptor first then everything else will be much easier to do once you have the two parts mated up and aligned.......hope that helps

silv - have your cleenex at the ready before you click the link below - this looks like the ultimate sprocket adaptor for you - good value too B)

http://www.sprocket-adaptors.co.uk/

as you will see in the dimensions section, the locating item is a bore (inner diameter) so your part made on a lathe will need to reflect this.

as an aside - the more I think about making the adaptor plate - the more I think you need to accuratley measure 4 VW gearbox mounting holes in relation to the input shaft - and also the R1 mounts relative to the sprocket shaft - when making the adaptor you must be mindfull of not putting any side loads on the shaft assembly from a slightly misaligned adaptor plate assembly..........bit of a long shot - but do you have access to a coordinate measurement machine? otherwise known as a CMM???.........but you might be able to do it with some large vernier calipers........

or prob your best bet......mount the box and engine on a machine shop grade flat bed and measure it all up with a vernier height gauge - I have done this myself before on my formula renault gearbox - and it worked a treat.

Wicked sprocket conversions there Knighty, good find!

There you go Silv it's all sorted :D

Have you done yet? :lol:








PS defo eliminate any side loading/missalignment of the two shafts.

too right! i misaligned a replacement gearbox on my old golf once and the clutch lasted for one trip round the block before it shattered :o :rolleyes:

Many thanks to all for the great input, guys.

Rutger - where did you get the pictures of the fireblade/VW? I've had a quick look on VWspyder.nl and can't see them.
Paul

HELLO,INTERESTING ENGINE CHOICE,LIKE TO KNOW WHAT THE TORQUE CURVE OF YOUR ENGINE IS AS A FUGITIVE WEIGHS IN AT CONSIDERABLY MORE THAN THE ORIGINAL BIKE,GOLDWING OR PAN-EUROPEAN ENGINE MAY HAVE BEEN WORTH CONSIDERING,SOME OF THESE ALSO HAD REVERSE,FOOD FOR THOUGHT ANYWAY.

No idea on the torque curve.

R1 was chosen as it has the EXUP system on the exhaust which is supposed to help with torque plus it deveops a fair whallop of power to keep things moving plus (and this may have been the biggest influence) it sounds bl**dy marvellous!! Can you imagine dropping down two cogs and blasting past a Beemer sounding like an F1 car? :)
I need to start acting my age and not my shoe size sometime soon I guess!

Paul

the torque debate about bike engines is a very short one - its not worth worrying about.......what people need to understand is that the engine does not have to pick up the car off the floor - it only needs to push it along......its a bit like being able to catch a 20Lb fish on 6lb line....whereby the line only pulls the fish along the water - not completley out of the water.....

a 1000cc R1 motor will produce about 60Lb/ft of torque, the bigger engines like the Blackbird and Hayabusa produce about 85Lb/ft of torque........I have raced against R1 powered cars in my blackbird powered single seater, and the R1 was the motor to have........the reason being its 20Kg lighter!.........steve-T has got an R1 powered silva striker, and his impressions of the R1 engine are along the lines of "what loss of torque" it can easily drive around town sensibly........or like a scalded cat - its not worth worrying about.

yes the exup valve creates more back pressure at low RPM for better drivability - therefore deffo worth having in a car

to my knowledge, the Goldwing engines are more like car engines, a goldwing owner actually told me the goldwing engines are also used in small vans!

silv - hows the conversion going?......will it ever go on the road? - or off-road only?.......you still got those Fug-4 panels for sale?......

hi, late reply but it is

http://www.vwspyder.nl/engine.htm

Looks FAB!

Can you link to some bigger pics please!

Steve

Knighty - progress is non existant at the moment due to the usual things that take higher priority: house extension, work, kids etc so I am in what I am calling "planning mode" - which means I think about doing a lot but don't actually achieve anything!
WRT to body panels, I do intend getting the Fug on the road (got the registration document through at last) and having seen the pics of Tiggers fug (which are great), I am now thinking about putting them on. We'll see...

Whilst in "planning mode"!I thought I'd ask for opinions on how to support the R1 engine. Could use an adaptor plate as pointed out by Rutger but that looks a bit tricky to knock up in the garage. Alternative is to build in a subframe to support the engine off the frame itself. What does anyone think?

seeya

Paul

Tried the "Sprocket Adapter Bloke" suggested above (http://www.sprocket-adaptors.co.uk/ )and have had no response to my email. Any other suggestions? I'd rather go with someone we know. Anyone dealt with MNRacing?

Cheers
Paul

hi guys,i know it is not a fug but check out YOU TUBE and search for R1 BUGGY. ;)
it is my best mates "THING" which started out as a 150cc road legal Urban Buggy.Since then he had the frame beefed up and put an R1 engine in the back.Sent the log book off to the DVLA stating engine change from 150 - 1000cc and they never even batted an eyelid.

The vid clip is him against a 320bhp Nissan Pulsar GTIR. :)
Very quick in a straight line but don't like bends, :blink:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BK5OhHbRKiQ
:ph43r:

:ph43r:

Can't believe it's so long since I did any work on the fug!! Where does the time go? (I'm sounding like an old man now)...moving on to my request for advice from you guys...
I have just started making up a sub-frame for mounting the R1 in the back of the fugitive frame and I'm not sure what angle the engine should sit at. Should the joint between the sump and the engine block be horizontal (the red line on photo "sump 1") or should the underside of the sump itself be horizontal (as it is mounted in the front of the seven replica in photo "sump2" )?

Have a good christmas all!

Sorry - here's the other pic

Personally I'd have a good look at an R1, but I'd guess it was how you'd said, with the gasket level. Obviously the engine is sitting the other way so oil surge will be very different on all fronts,but I've never heard of oil pick-up being an issue unless racing ( long drawn out corners at really high speed ). Dry sump conversion is pretty expensive option though. Was using the bike gearbox and a chain-drive diff not an option.

Thanks for that 100bob. Trouble is - you hardly ever see an R1 standing still around here - they're usually going past you on one wheel!

Chain drive would have meant a complete reconstruction of the rear end which I didn't want to do at this stage. So - bolting the R1 on the back of the beetle box was what I thought I'd have a go at.

May come round to a chain drive one day.

Paul

A mate of mine has one, next time he's about I'll have a look. Most bike engines lean forward, don't know if carb angle with give anything away.

Silv, I know of many R1 conversions that place the sump split line horozontal, it dosent cause any other problems with the carbs.......go for it