Hi,

Managed to drag the cover off the Fugitive 4 at the weekend to take some pictures so you can see what I have got myself into :blink:

Here's a link to the pictures on my Flickr page... was going to add them here but I couldn't get them to resize, sorry.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/32526989@N06/...57609260423713/

Looks a bit odd with the skinny tyres and very high up at the front and back.... plus that engine looks tiny with nothing else around it!!

The plan as it stands is to strip it right back, weld up all the holes in the chassis tubes where bits have been mounted and start again........ :)

looks like a pretty good bare canvas you have there ;) what do you plan to do engine wise then stay air cooled (what size is the engine you have now?) or go for something different a lot of the lads are putting scooby motors in their beetles and campers would be interesting in a fug :lol:

There does seem to be a lot of debate on the whole engine thing. I know that the easy and quick to complete way would be to pop an aircooled in as it is all ready and meant to be there!! As it is only a 1200 singleport I would want to replace it with something a bit better, but they really aren't that cheap on ebay, even a base level twin port. What do you find your engine is like? Are you thinking of an engine transplant....
Scooby engine is an interesting one and having read some of the posts in the tech section it seems again that the box is the big issue. But it is a nice flat 4 keeping the weight low..

I've got a 1300 twin port which seems to run fine due to the light weight its pushing but i fancy a 2.0 litre air cooled which kicks out around 100bhp as standard although my mate is putting a bike motor (150 bhp) in his blitz buggy :lol: should be fun. I think if you get a decent gearbox from a bigger aircooled motor you will be able to get an adaptor plate from kennedy to mate it up to just about any motor you fancy sure someone can point us in the right direction there if you change your motor completely can i have first dibs on your exhaust cheers bud ;)

I agree with Jacko - certainly a good basis that one, nice to see there are still plenty of un finished fugs out there.......looks like the front beam is standard and sitting very high!

Jacko

Those exhausts are pretty shot I reckon, but if you are interested I'll dig 'em out, pop some pics in the Flickr page and you can see if you still want them. If so ur welcome to them.....

The front beam is mega high at the mo and that definitely need to come down. I am keen to see what the placement of the fuel tank etc will do to that, not much I suspect. I was tempted by coilovers with new turret tops but mayeb swayaways are an easier solution... any suggestions. I see you have Gaz shocks, they are pretty well priced in Rally Design and have adjustment to fine tune which is always good.......

Cheers Jimbo have just told the wife to forget the playstation 3 and buy me new cannons and coilover shocks instead for christmas but thanks anyway :D
What fuel tank are you using ive still got the original beetle one which im hoping will when full add a bit of weight to the front end

Hmm, well the plan was to try and make up a custom tank to sit up front, but I guess it all depends upon time. I was also going to be keeping an eye on ebay for fuel tanks as nice ally ones do come up now and then.
No worries about the exhausts. I shall probably put them to one side just in case I need them for mine or our beach buggy.

Which coilovers are you going for. I am thinking of converting mine from it's std beam and would be interested to know how you are going about it.....

guys, be real careful using coil-over shocks........I used some on the rear of my fug and it was just way too hard, and took them off straight away.......on the front, bear in mind that you need to remove the 6 small torsion leaves from each of the upper and lower (12 total) front torsion tubes, so even the standard VW front suspension is too hard for a fug......fitting coil over shocks will just make the front worse again......be careful

Interesting point Knighty, I'd often wondered about my suspension. It's suprisingly comfortable, considering the fact it shouldn't be. It's actually a lot smoother than a beetle, yet firm enough to handle well. It wasn't me, but thinking about it someone must have altered/adjusted it at some point other than just lifting it. Not that I've any experience of it, but agree coil over is likely to be a mistake unless doing major off road or jumps.

I can see where Knighty is coming from, but there is another way which you may want to consider before you cut anything off :ph43r:

Damping - we always over conpensate, learn to back it off abit. Buying good quality dampers that damp on the rebound as well as the stroke is the secret.

Check your frame - its a lot of mucking about but making sure all 4 wheels point in the right direction and are square diangonally will make all the difference.

Tyre pressures - vitaliy important, and because the fugitive isn't listed on the chart next to the new beetle at your local Tyre fitting estiblishment you have to determine it for yourself. Get some tyre chalk and make a big fat band across the width of the tyre, take it for a run doing everything you normally do. When the band is worn across the full width of the tyre you have the correct pressure.
And just to show how different it can turn out to 'normal' cars; mine has 9psi in the front and 18psi in the rear...and it works B)

Agree on coil overs, high or lowered set -up if the rest is set up correctly, you won't need them.
You are only compensating for something being 'wrong'

Well I managed to get a Pinto engine adaptor plate, flywheel and stainless exhaust originally from a Covin 911 replica off ebay a week or so ago :) so the plans are revised a bit. I had thought that I might adapt the flywheel to the zetec bolt pattern and use the plate to mate it to the box but it is a bit more involved than that (are engine swaps ever easy?!) :blink: .
So I shall be fitting a Pinto first (as I have one to hand) and then using the adaptor plate as a template to mate the Zetec up in the future for the sake of getting it running quickly. Hopefully then I can sell the pinto and parts on again in the future.
As I start to make some headway on the whole thing i'll keep you all up to date. First start will be getting the cover off and taking it to my 'shed'.........

i thought most fords had the same bolt spacing on the blocks. i think i saw something about converting a pinto to a zetec in one of the latest kitcar mags. cant remember which one though...might be "which kit" as i think they do lots of technical stuff. good luck with the swop though.

Zetec is a lovely little engine, we have a good 1.8 sitting in the garage out of a moderate rear crashed Focus we bought to use the front panels. Pinto was always good and cheap, not quite so many about now though. What about a cvh turbo, we got 205bhp out of my Escord 15yrs ago.

RIGHT,WE ALL LIKE A CHALLENGE?,AND EACH TO THEIR OWN,NOW MY PENNETH WORTH,ENGINE WISE -2L PINTO,HEAVY,109ISH BHP,ALL THE HASSLE OF ADAPTOR PLATE/CLUTCH PLATE/COOLING, WHY NOT AIR COOLED VW -FLAT 4S LOOK GREAT IN A FUG,NONE OF THE ABOVE PROBS,AND LOTS OF TUNING OPTIONS,I HAVE RECENTLY BOUGHT AN AIRCOOLED FLAT 6 PORSCHE ENGINE AND BOX FOR A FUTURE PROJECT,ZETEC GETS THE THUMBS UP AS A GOOD ENGINE,BUT IN A FUG?,CONSIDER THIS CONSTRUCTIVE CRITICISM,AND I WISH YOU GOOD LUCK WITH THE BUILD.

i have wanted to try two oil cooled gsxr engines...150bhp each and very light. i have seen twin engined kit cars before..z-cars used to do a kit i think.

Bike power every time, you can't get close to it with a conventional car engine in a light weight kit. A Hayabusa turbo is way quicker than any V8 or Cosworth in a Dax rush, it's a fact I've tried them. Thing is small and light bike engines are stunning, especially with turbo power, but they are so physically small, and would look silly in a Fug. Twin engines would be perfect, but who's going to spend that amount on a Fugitive. I'm looking for a bike engined something or similar at the minute. The Mini on Ebay at the minute would do nicely, but £30k would take some swallowing.

Bike power is good I grant you and if your wallet is bottomless then its definitly the way to go...but Pounds notes against fun factor you STILL can't beat cu inchs B)
Also I think for a fugitive you would have to seriously re-think the chassis if not start again.....interesting though <_<

i dont know....2400cc with 300bhp at 10,000 rpm ( plus 8 cylinders!!!) dont sound too bad...also 5 speed quickshift and oil cooled...NO REVERSE THOUGH :(
i think i would have enough room in my f33 for tow bike engines. now i have my chassis stripped i can see the wood for the trees.

bike engines!......if you want my 2 pence worth.......after building & racing a blackbird engined single seater with slicks and wings over a 5 year period........dont do 2 engines, it will just spin the wheels everywhere and probably kill you, also you dont need turbos either, that will also kill you too, honestly - think very carefully before doing either............just plan on using a single standard Hayabusa or Blackbird engine, that will well and truly scare the 5hit out of you for sure.......believe me, I have been there done it got the T-shirt.

steer well clear of chain drives, therefore for your F33 plan on mid mounting the engine with the line of cylinders pointing north-south, then use a differential from something like a sierra, you will also need a good diff, I highly reccomend a Quaife, otherwise you will spend your life waiting for the inside rear wheel to stop spinning.

you also can now get some good wet sumps with extra volume wings and trap-door baffles for only a few hundred quid.......because a dry sump will cost over a grand for sure. :ph43r:

My response my seem childish, but to be told what I'm building would be frightening would only make me positive that I wanted to build it. I feel the turbo is necessary in respect of the fact I love acceleration, yes a Blade or Blackbird is obviously incredibly quick, but the TurboBusa puts the stuff to shame. Don't drive one or you will never be satisfied with what ever else you have. Youtube Dax Nurenburg, have a look and tell me I'm wrong. Been out in a Dax of that spec and it's unreal, 500bhp with 0-60 in 2.7. To get that acceleration on a bike is apart from a little scary actually dangerous! Road surface, wheelspin, tank slapper, wheelie can happen to any of us. Put it in a car you can sit there and just nail it. I'm definately going to get one sooner or later, love my Fug but it just can't compete.

well my choice of engine would be what i ride every day. a bandit 1200( or the gsxr1100) lots of low down torque and none of this screaming needed like the modern engines. if i had the time and money then i would look in to this, but for now i am sticking to my rover v8 and maybe convert it to injection with a megasquirt system. got the lightweight starter last week and just looking on ebay for a lightweight alt. got my tvr exhaust manifolds to convert then i have most things i need to start rebuilding.

My 2 pence worth is like this. Big engine everyday. I can pull away in the fug in third gear and not change to 4th until about 90-100mph and still leave most things standing at the lights. Before I got the fug I was going to build an mk indy with an r1 engine. Test drove one and it was fast but you had to scream the nuts of it. The v8 is very relaxed and that comes across when you drive it. A high revving bike engine is not relaxing and would take a lot more effort to keep it on the boil. If I was building a sprint car or a hill climbing car ( competition car) I would go bike route but for a cruising/ posing car I would go for cu inches everytime.

100bob....

love my Fug but it just can't compete.

...oh yes it can :P


I can 'wipe' the floor with my mate's far from standard 'blade powered Ginetta, which incidently cost twice as much as the Fug to build :D :D ..and if i really want to pi55 him off we all go out and do a 50 mile blast cos by the time we get back his ears are bleeding and he has worn out another gear selector :D Bike engines defo have their place...in pure compitition specials and bikes ;)

Seriously though ...and based on my own experiences I reckon 250-275 bhp is about your limit in a fugitive without out a serious re-think. I've added about 25 feet of extra tubing to take out the torque loading but even so you are just about on the limit of the chassis.

Having said that I'd love you to prove me wrong :P :P

Tiggar is completley correct.......bike engines are very expensive to maintain and run........and a twin engine set-up will be a pig to engineer........speaking generally, bike engined kit cars are becoming a fad that is now starting to peter out.......on paper they sound great, but in reality, sumps, reverse gears, reliability and drivability all suck........hence most people have gone back to car engines.........as I said, I have been there done it, got the T-shirt.

Well I'm glad to have sparked off a bit of a discussion regarding engines.... :D

I'm going to be sticking with current plans for the Pinto for a few reasons.... i know it is a boat anchor of an engine but the power potential is well documented and it really is to be a temporary thing. Having got the adaptor plate, flywheel and a custom stainless exhaust off ebay cheaply it is good to use them. The engine bolt pattern is the same as the Zetec so I can use the adaptor as a template but, unfortunately, there is a big oil seal casting on the back of the zetec block stopping the pinto plate going straight on. Plus the flywheel bolt pattern is different (Pinto 6xM10 on a 64PCD against 6xM11 on a 70PCD) and whilst the two do fit on the same flywheel I don't fancy drilling extra holes at the root of the flywheel for the sake of it!! I'll make a new adaptor plate and flywheel to suit the Zetec at some point....
I was going to go the megasquirt route with throttle bodies (a set of CBR600 carbs that I have modded up) and I can put that on the Zetec at the time of the swap. It also means that the fuel tank will be already modded for fuel injection too. It should be reasonable to expect at least 130hp on a Pinto in that spec which is way more than I can get converting my dire 1300 single port engine on a tight budget. Especially as the Pinto is free.... :)
As the total budget for the whole car rebuild is a meagre £1000 tops any thoughts of bike engines is way out too :( Shame as I love the sound of an engine at 10k+ revs but as that budget barely covers the basics of a bike engine conversion I am leaving well alone. Anyway an all iron boat anchor pinto should at least help when trying to pop wheelies...... :o

Jimbo,

Go for it! with that sort of power to weight you will still have a very fast fug, and if you spend the time on sorting your chassis (not expensive) you will be albe to use that power 9/10's of the time, which really is wot it is all about :D

sounds like a good plan to me, all I'd say is just put as much weight up front as possible, that will help balance out the pinto weight, so the fuel tank and battery are easy to do.......you may also want to consider a nose mounted radiator, its currently something I'm considering.......its been done before.........

see the top of page 33 in the library section, look at magazine article scans, component car july 1985.......its a fug 2 with a 4-cyl golf engine.......the front end is just what you should be looking to achieve B)

just read the article, sure enough they also used a golf radiator angled at 45 degrees.......as its a 1985 issue article I'm guessing its a Mk1 radiator.......just looked at some on ebay and sure enough they look nice and compact, but the best feature being both inlet & outlet are on the same side of the rad.......just what I'm looking for!

I know what you mean about needing the weight up front, it should help the balance of it, though 100+kilos of me in the middle will help balance the Pinto out!!
I have hopefully just got an ally fuel tank off ebay very cheaply so I'll have to see if that can easily fit up front, otherwise I'll go for a similar layout to the streetfighterfug4 style with everything just behind the seats.
The front mounted rad makes sense, but actually fitting it depends on the type. There are some very nice ally ones again on ebay (can you tell how I spend my lunchtimes...!!) which are suitable, but it makes the mounting of an expansion/header tank a bit more involved. Not impossible though. A duct arrangement to aid airflow through the rad would help too. Another benefit of the rad up front is the warm feet on cold mornings!!

Hi Jimbo,

'Knighty' suggested I contact you about this project. I've PM'd you.

if you want to chat, please give me a call. 07712897409.

thanks

JP

I am still waiting to see someone put a Tatra engine in a Fug.

Aircooled V8..........perfect!

A design masterpiece apparently.

John

I've suggested this before, late model 613, 200bhp to start with. I'd like to think somewhere in a parallel universe I'm building one right now...... :o